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OTC fish antibiotics for aquatic turtles?


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#1 Skeyes

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 10:03 PM

Ok, here is the story. I meet a guy today that says he has taken care of koi and aquatic turtles in his pond for years. He started using a couple of over-the-counter fish antibiotics to treat the koi and says he discovered they treat his turtles as well.

The antibiotic, minocycline, packaged by Mardel laboratories as Maracyn-Two is supposed to be a broad spectrum primarily effective against gram-negative bacteria. Maracyn, erythromycin, is used as a compliment to this as it is effective against gram-positive bacteria. He says these two used together will get rid of almost anything his turtles have had, mouth rot, respiratory infections, etc. He says the best thing about them is he just puts them in the water and lets the fish and turtles ingest them with the water, no injections or orals. He says it saves him tons of money at the vet's.

This just sounded too good to be true to me -- inexpensive, over-the-counter antibiotics that cure everything with no stress to the turtles? Anyone ever heard anything like this before? Any input, positive or negative?

#2 MouhotiiFan

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 10:07 PM

My input from a medical perspective-

By doing this, you will be doing what is known as a "shotgun" treatment. Sure it may be effective. But what if it isn't?
The best way to deal with bacteria is to have it cultured then do a sensitivity test on it, to see what will eliminate it.

Another note. Many states are considering outlawing OTC medications for this reason. We as a society are abusing what little antibiotics we have.

Steve

#3 beanster

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 10:36 PM

I have used Maracyn Plus with success in cases of necrotic skin desease in some of my waterdragon babies where Baytril was not effective.It helped and I have used it in cases of shell rot in aquatic turtles with success.it works on the same bacteria that cause both of these deseases,I did my homework but you have to keep up a certain time,at least ten days like with any other antibiotic.If you stop too early it will breed resistant strains.

#4 JGA

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 11:02 PM

I have successfully used debride a koi ointment its abit more expensive but it does wounders on cuts to keep them from getting any more infected when I applied it on one of my koi 2 years ago who had a nasty body ulcer the cut whited over in a day medicated food also heldped the fish fully recover in less than 2 weeks and I recently used it on one of my boxies who had a minor shell rot infection that scabed and healed in less than a week just a thought
thanks,
JGA

#5 beanster

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 11:16 PM

JGA,what is that stull called correctly in the stores and can I get it in any good aquarium store?

#6 JGA

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 11:39 PM

hhmm in a aquarium store probably not, but I do know someone who can help big time
Tom Holder proud distributer of koizyme and other beneficial products including debride heres his contact info:

Westminster, California 92683

(714) 379-1623 (also fax line)

Pager: (888) 534-1705

email: Lymnozyme@aol.com

and a site to boot
http://www.koizyme.com/home2.html
hope that helps beanster Toms a good firiend of mine. Just ask him about Jose and how much he has helped us
Thanks,
JGA

#7 beanster

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 11:48 PM

i live in L.A. so that will help.

#8 MouhotiiFan

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:02 AM

Necrotic skin disease and shell rot can be caused by many different pathogens.

Steve

#9 beanster

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:09 AM

They can but usually necrotic skin desease or blister desease as it's called is caused by aeromonas and shell rot is caused by citrobacter and both respond well to the antibiotics in Maracyn Plus.it has three antibiotics in it in a colloidal suspension so it sticks to the skin.the blister desease did not respond to the Baytril that the vet gave me but putting Maracyn Plus into their water and using Silvadene cured it and all waterdragons made a full recovery.

#10 JGA

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:02 PM

although most other disinfectants work just as well im sure debride has yet to let me down heck i heard a story by Tom that one of his friend's wife had a mouth sore (or canker im not sure) but it helped her heal it!!! which makes me believe it is effective on a broad range of organisms like escherichia, citrobacter, and pseudomonas im not sure if it would work on a enterobacter species though when we cultivate at work it usually very resistant to almost every available antibiotic we offer most cepholosporins usually are resistant its a tough usually imipenem works the best. I think the best idea would be if its serious than you might more than likely need a vets help,
JGA

#11 Skeyes

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:41 AM

I have done a lot of research on fish antibiotics. I have a feeling that yes, they would be effective on turtles but doseage and getting the one that would be effective on your particular microbe is what a vet or more experienced animal/medical tech would be needed for. Just giving antibiotics for an illness doesn't mean a resulting cure will take place.

However, it is my experience that vets always start out with a broad-spectrum antibiotic anyways. If a first reaction is to add some fish antibiotics to the water in hopes of "nipping it in the bud" and saving a vet trip, I don't see the harm of this. You can always mention to the vet that you already tried this broad-spectrum antibiotic and it did not work so a culture and specific antibiotic is needed. Heck, if you have experience or work in a lab, you could always do a culture yourself to determine the particular microbe and needed antibiotic.

There are many reptile disease and antibiotic studies posted on the internet to do research. i.e. pseudomonas is the most common cause of mouth rot, commonly used is Baytril (a broad spectrum known to be effetive against pseudomonas) only available through a vet. However there are other effective antibiotics used to treat pseudomonas, piperacillin, or a combo of gentamicin or amikacin with carbenicillin or ceftazidime. These are only by prescibtion. OTC antibiotics effective against pseudomonas is such items as the fish antibiotics mentioned in this post.

Just for those wondering what Debride and other koi/pond medications are and where to get them here is a link. Pond supply stores would carry these items.

Maracyn Plus also by Mardel Labs is here. Items like these would be found in aquarium supply stores.

Vets treat with experienced knowledge but find themselves using a "shotgun" treatment offen themselves to keep cost down. Rarely do I see vets taking a culture and doing lab work before treatment is given.

Edited by Skeyes, 20 October 2005 - 09:34 AM.


#12 JGA

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 12:28 PM

I have a feeling that yes, they would be effective on turtles but doseage and getting the one that would be effective on your particular microbe is what a vet or more experienced animal/medical tech would be needed for. Just giving antibiotics for an illness doesn't mean a resulting cure will take place.


couldnt agree more skeyes

Heck, if you have experience or work in a lab, you could always do a culture yourself to determine the particular microbe and needed antibiotic.


although we are not generally allowed but we sometimes might when we want a answer and what we are dealing with ;) and it really is an advantage

Just for those wondering what Debide and other koi/pond medications are and where to get them here is a link. Pond supply stores would carry these items.


yeah im pretty sure you can find it at any pond store now and it is spelled debride just thought you would like to know
skeyes your doing great hope we can get access to all your research :D




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